My Pop Five
My Pop Five
Harmless: American Movie, Southland Tales, what.cd, House of Leaves, The Larry Sanders Show
Some records feel like they were built to survive the algorithm. by them, by you, by me is one of them. We sit down with Harmless to unpack how an album can be both tighter and fuller by saying no—no to bloat, no to trend-chasing, and yes to constraints, honesty, and the strange joy of finishing a thing even when life gets heavy.
We start with the “gospel” works that shaped his taste: American Movie as the patron saint of do-it-anyway creativity; Southland Tales as a teenage obsession that taught him to defend bold art on its own terms; and the secret world of what.cd, where lossless rips, vinyl transfers, and deep threads turned ambient, experimental, and electronic music into a lifelong compass. Those influences explain the album’s texture: guitar-forward songs with an electronic brain, humble tools used with intent, and arrangements that feel tactile rather than crowded.
The conversation also digs into the hardest parts. Harmless talks candidly about grief during production, turning in the most “noteless” record of his career, and rediscovering the peace of process over outcomes. We explore how House of Leaves mirrors internet-shaped storytelling, why The Larry Sanders Show remains the blueprint for ambitious, unlikable, deeply human art, and how an ADHD-friendly studio ritual—loop a take while a comfort show plays silently—can unlock flow when pressure spikes.
We tackle AI and the future of music with clear-eyed optimism: technology will keep changing the tools, but people still gather around story, myth, and the watercooler. The work that lasts is the work that lets us talk to each other. If you’re craving a thoughtful, funny, and grounded look at taste, constraints, and creative resilience, this one’s for you.
If the episode resonates, tap follow, share it with a friend who loves discovering new artists, and leave a quick review—then tell us the “gospel” film or record that shaped your taste.
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We'll see you next time. But until then, what's your Pop Five?
Hello, hello, and welcome back. It's another episode of My Pop 5, the show in which artists break down five pieces of pop culture that had a hand in shaping who they are. I'm your host, Ryan Rayle. Today's guest is someone whose work I've admired for a while. Harmless is a project that blends introspection, emotion, and electronic textures in a way that's unmistakably their own. Their newest album, by them, by you, by me, which is out now, is a beautiful evolution of that sound. And we're entering today's episode with a track from it. This is future music. So let's get into it, our conversation with Harmless. Harmless is this incredible singer, songwriter, musician who has made some incredible tunes. Some of you may have heard, you know, through viral TikToks and Swing Lin, but also out now is his album by Them, By You, By Me. It came out on October 17th. And so we are so excited to have you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. You know, one of the things that I think is so special about this show is the opportunity to really get into some of the things that inspire you both that as an artist, um, but also just as a human. What are the things that kind of make you tick? And, you know, over the years, as we've had more people come on, I'm so inspired after getting the chance to experience some of the things that likely inspired you. So I'm excited to kind of get into the details of what you kind of listed here for your pop five and really just kind of geek out about them with you because many of these I hadn't experienced before and had the chance to really dig in deeper with. And man, great taste, really cool stuff.
SPEAKER_00:What uh what popped out of you?
SPEAKER_01:No pun intended for the you know, uh, you know, one of the things that, and I'm gonna go ahead and kind of list them here, right? What you listed here on your pop five was Southland Tales, American Movie, the documentary, what dot cd. You had a couple novels here listed here with you know 2666 and House of Leaves, and then you know, kind of close things off with some TV shows that you liked in the Larry Shanders Larry Sanders show and The Sopranos. So lots of stuff going on. But what I think was most compelling to me was the American movie like really touched me in so many different ways, right? The the documentary, and we'll get into that in more detail. But overall, if I was to try and see, like after having gone through some of which I had seen before, but like re-experience all over again, seeing the connective tissue between, you know, cultural identity, letting go of perfection, art versus careerism, the delusion with success, like all of those just kind of various themes that you could kind of touch on through many of these. And then listening to both the new record and a lot of the stuff you've created, all of that that kind of just melts into the soup, just like just gave me this like incredible feeling of just like both hope and wonder and reflection. And so yeah, I I think it's all that connective tissue that I think just I felt the most in experiencing it all in this period of time.
SPEAKER_00:I'm I'm glad, you know, it was really hard to pick anything. I think like the problem actually was the opposite, where like uh I was sending way too much stuff. Sure, sure. And you know, like uh when I was sending over the materials to the label, even one person laughed, being like, dude, you gotta cut it down. Yeah. And I was like, all right, you know what? I'm just gonna give you general obsessions I had since high school and move on from there. Because I still like, you know, I I talk about kind of like how everybody has like a like a gospel. Like, you know, do you have like gospel movies where for sure? Yeah, where you're like, no, you have to see this if you want to get to know me as a person. This is this is like that movie or this is that record. Or and like sometimes they're not good, and sometimes you know, uh and that that's kind of where I went. But definitely American movie was like a like early high school obsession of mine. So like when I moved to the US, you know, I was on a green card and my parents' greatest like trick, it's not even a trick, it's just true, was telling me, like, look, you can do more or less whatever you want, but just know that if you get in trouble, you might get kicked out of the country. And I would always and like it, you know, it worked because you know, every time like I would get invited to a party or something, I would be like, All right, I think it's time I'm gonna leave, or I'm not gonna drink, or anything like that, because I was terrified, right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But what I did have was a library card. And I would go to like the library closest to my house. I would like bike like three miles downhill and then three miles back up. And my parents just, you know, there's only one little checkbox in the like library car checkout thing for people under 18, which was like, is my kid allowed to check out like rated R movies or whatever? Sure. And I don't think my parents like really looked into it. They're just like, oh, he's getting a library card, like, yay. But what I did was like I was like going through, you know, back in the day, you you know, you printed out a list of the best movies or whatever, and you went through all of them, and I would check out like five at a time and watch them. And you know, like good movies are good, that's obvious. Yeah, but I remember, you know, I was like, I kind of want to like watch documentaries. I think like this was the first one I got super obsessed with. I love skate videos too. Yeah, like I just love like this, this like uh like when a medium, like whether it's skating or music or movies or whatever, like someone becomes so obsessed with it that they just like have to do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like it has to get made. And like when you watch it, you're like, oh, it might not be good or it might be a little clunky, or like uh in the case of American movie, like I don't know if like everybody I've ever shown it to like really believes in these guys, right? Like they think like they're zany characters or like they're this and that, but like the way that I see it is just like they don't know any other way to live other than to like make this movie, yeah. And that that's always really, really inspired me. I think like in retrospect, I wish I could have made you watch Nirvana the band, the show. Because it's like that same realm of just like I have an idea, I need to make my idea, I don't care if no one believes in my idea. And I think I took that in stride because when I started making music, I I didn't really know how to do a lot of like technical things or make things sound good, but I knew that like I was like, I know I could write a good song or something like that, and I'm just gonna like make it. I was like borrowing instruments from people and like uh doing it in my dorm room for a lot of the time in college, like in between working at a cafeteria. This was like referring to Swinglin, but like I just I think if it wasn't for like those kinds of movies like American Movie, you know, like you watch those things and you get inspired. And I think it really inspired me to be like, oh, like these guys are hyper limited and they don't and they're still like he's still doing it, you know. Still really, still really look up to that movie, and that's like definitely one of like my gospel movies. It's like a good gospel movie, like it's actually a good movie. I think Southland Tales, I don't know if you've seen it before, but that's like that's that's a different kind of obsession that I have.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. You know, one of the things, and and for the audience, uh American movie, the the premise of it is it's documentary of you're following this, you know, Mark Borschart, who's the struggling Midwestern filmmaker who's really trying to finish his low budget horror movie. Um, and what you see, yeah, Coven. Coven or Coven. I can't everyone pronounces it different. Yeah. And as he's trying to finish it, you go through all the difficulties of trying to do art without a lot of financing or like professionals, and you know, there's awkward moments, there's hilarious moments, there's heartbroken, it's overly sincere about the struggles of like trying to create something that you're really passionate about. When it's like infinitely quotable, like that's maybe the biggest part for me.
SPEAKER_00:Like, I still say kick fucking ass man all the time. Yeah. Or like, it's alright, it's okay, there's something to live for. But I like I love the grandpa in that movie because like all it takes is really like one person. You know what I mean? Like, of course, that person in his life had a lot of money and lived in squalor and all this shit. But like, I I always really like that like he managed to convince like five people that this was like worth it. And even more than that. And like, as you watch it, I don't know, you you start like believing in him. Yeah. I I was like, man, like, you know, I gotta, I gotta figure like I was like, oh man, like when I was young, I was like, I gotta figure it out. There's really no excuse. Not in like a bad way, but more just like, if I really want to do something, I should just set out to like do it.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. Yeah. And and there's multiple things to take from that one, which is just like, yeah, having that mindset of just like if there's something pulling me towards something, actually having the drive and energy to do it. But also then, like, you know, people say this all the time, but actually like really reminding yourself about like the joy of everything is the process, you know. I think like so much of when you're creating art or trying to do something is with the intention of having some level of result. And that's obviously part of why you're doing things. You make something because you want it to be heard or because you want it to be seen. But like so much of the things you actually remember are like the making of. And I I hate everything that happens after making something. I hate it. Totally. I hate it. And in the movie, one of the things that made me laugh so hard was uh, and it was sincere somewhat in the in the movie, but when he's just like, would you pay$14.95 for this? And he's like, Great, now I just need 3,000 people to kind of do the same thing, you know? And then we're saying I'm good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, but like I I don't know. I I resonate with that because like I I hate uh and I think a lot of artists will speak on this, but it's just like, man, like putting stuff out and hoping for the best and wanting people to like listen to it, you know, like I think like as time goes on when you get to do like your passion as like a full-time practice, like you really learn to like enjoy, like really, really learn to enjoy the process, you know? Yeah, yeah and I think a big motif of this record was sort of like having like you know, like having your dreams come true and then kind of sitting with it. I always think about like kind of like you know, the ending of the graduate or even like as you said in the in American movie, like just this thing where it's like the the fun part of any like narrative is really like getting to the happily ever after. But like what is happily ever after, you know, it's why like I think that the real ones meet like the real ones love the before midnight and before sunset movie more than before sunrise. Because like, you know, like I think even like Link later describes it as like the first movie is what it could be, the second movie is what it should be, and the third movie is what it is.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I think I'm definitely in the musical part of my career where I'm like, oh, this is what it is. Like I'm married, and now you you know, like you gotta work on that. Like I'm getting older, and you know, your body changes, and you gotta work on that. There's always that goal in mind, you know, at the other side of like everything that you're gotta work on, quote unquote. But like when you're younger, it's a lot easier to hyper focus on like, well, if the movie gets made, 300 people buy it for$15, then I'm gonna be famous, and then uh, or like, you know, I'm gonna get on pitchfork, I'm gonna get this, I'm gonna get that. And like eventually you get one of those things, and then you're like, cool, now uh do it again. Right? And then that's what life kind of becomes. And so, like, I don't know, watching movies like Southland Tales, really in retrospect, especially now, like I look at them different because before I'd be like, oh man, like I really hope this guy wins. But as I watch the movie, I'm like, ah, dude, this guy got like 10 people to believe in his idea. He already won.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like for all intents and purposes, he already won it. And if he could like allow himself in the present to really feel that, I think he'd be a lot happier. But I don't know if the world works that way. I mean, I certainly feel like like maybe the best movie I've seen this year is the Nirvana the Band, the show movie, for that reason. Because I was just like, man, like these guys managed to convince everybody that this had to be made. And like the movies are fantastic, but it's that feeling of like, damn, you really just need a couple of people to believe in you, and I think that's enough.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. Man, the thing that really it's like sometimes it's silly when you mention that it's like a Pixar movie, but the Pixar movie Soul is the thing that totally shifted my whole perspective. Have you seen it by any chance?
SPEAKER_00:No, dude. Okay, I went to CalArts and I um there's something about like seeing how the sausage gets made with animated movies and meeting the people that make animated movies. I think in the same way that like when you meet like musicians or your favorite directors or whatever artists in their element, and you kind of just like go, all right, like I think I think I've had enough of that. Sure. Yeah, I after going to CalArt's, I was like, you know, I I don't I don't have to watch I don't have to I I don't have to watch Pixar movies. And like there's something kind of really grand sometimes about like seeing these things and going like, oh, like I went to school with the person that's directing that, right? And like you feel for them, but there's a like in a good way, like you know, you might feel proud or whatever, but then you're also just like, okay. Yeah, like I don't, you know, I I feel like people are like that with my art, you know, like that I went to college with, which who are probably like, dude, you know what? Good for you. I'm really glad that you're yeah, that your record is doing well and that I could do that. And then it's like, oh, have you heard it? No, no, I haven't.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, you know what I was gonna say about it, and not to give any spoilers, if you really should decide to do it, but there's like a pivotal moment where a character like kind of reaches the the pinnacle of what he was always kind of going after. And you know, and he's on stage at a performance, you know, just played this incredible performance, and he kind of looks over to the band leader and it's like, cool, what now? And she just goes, We come back again and do it again tomorrow. You know, it's just like that, like, oh, you know, you you that when you made it, when it's kind of there. Yeah. And there's other parts in there too that it's just like, uh, you know, taking the moments you talked about, like uh, hey, you need to focus on your health or your your family, and like, you know, the the beauty of life can also be, you know, the the piece of pecan pie or the sitting at the beach, and it's just like the reminder that life and this this experience is so much more than whatever your goals or ambitions are. Because when you get there, it might just be, yeah, now we come do it again tomorrow, you know, kind of a thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I I mean self self-actualization of any kind is tough because you have to relinquish the idea of control. And I think that's especially tough when you pick a career path that's like artistic, because like you want everything, you know. The greatest analogy I ever got told was that uh a creative project is like you're always going all in at the blackjack table, right? Yes. And if you get a bad, you know, like if the house gets a good hand and you thought you had a great hand, but like they beat you, then it's like cool, like that gotta go do another one and come back. And may I don't like them's the brakes, man. And you know, a big part of like having a functional business, because it is a business, is like being dead set on this idea of like the result. And so like whenever you're making something, you're always thinking of the result. You ultimately don't end up like really enjoying the only part that you have control over, which is like making it. And I've learned that lesson very much the hard way. I've learned that the only things that like you truly have control over are you know like your intimate relationships and like the health of them, your own personal health, like you know, your your body, uh, and like lastly, like what you make, you know, like you get to choose how you make and what you make. You end up having fun, much more fun with it if you're not like so hyper focused on like, well, is this going to be well, this has to be a little TikTok blah blah blah, or whatever. Sure, sure. Yeah. Again, I think I've learned a lot of these lessons the hard way. I feel like you know, when you're 33 in the indie music scene, you're kind of like a dinosaur already. So uh I definitely feel like that that kind of like indie elder who was there during like the the the pitchfork years and all that stuff. Like whenever I talk to like younger artists to tell them, like, oh dude, like you know, just enjoy what you're doing. People can sense when you enjoyed making something, yeah, and take care of yourself. A stretch, go on a run. That's the you know, like eat well. I eat like an old man, man. I I eat I eat toast, avocado, and sardines like almost every day. It's disgusting, but yeah, but like you know, like be inspired. It's just funny.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. I mean, it sounds like you've you've been able to help evolve and have a healthy, healthier relationship. I'm curious with this specific project, like relating it back to like American movie. That's something where you know what we've been talking about is the creator putting everything they have, right? Like that they were born to kind of make this. I'm sure at points in your career that was the case with, you know, when you're making your your music. Do you feel that it was that in making this latest record, or do you feel like it's a little bit more evolved of an approach, you know, with some more practicality?
SPEAKER_00:Or how do you feel? I think I went all in. I think like it was one of those things where I I thought that like I went into it like thinking, like, you know, like, oh, like this might be the last thing I ever do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And not because like for some, you know, greater sense of like, oh, like if if this is the last you know, like how like in like uh heist movies or whatever, they're like just one last job, you know. Sure. Like, no, I I like genuinely was just kind of like, you know, I made a record before it and I finally got to like experience like the the the like full like what an album cycle is and all this stuff. And uh it kind of, you know, it it really drove me crazy. Couple that with like the increasing pressure on the world, or at least in the US, like things just getting progressively worse and worse. There was just some part of me that was like, look, man, like if this is like your last record or your last record for a while, like why don't we just do whatever we want? Like, let's not focus on genre, let's not focus on like you know, uh is it is it gonna be TikTokable? Like, is this the 15 seconds hit? Like, what's the chorus? Like, I I was just kind of like, man, like I want to go back to what it was when I was like first making music. So I was like, cool, uh, I can only like I can't overproduce it, like it's gonna be like maximum three guitars. I can't use pedals that I didn't own when I was like, you know, I I have to use similar equipment that I had when I was like younger, when I couldn't really afford that stuff. And I think it was like in those limits and sort of like the like creating these like constraints that I was able to like sort of give myself the space to be like, all right, like I think I could write something that like could be honest and could be like laying it all out there and could be like the last thing I do, uh like in maybe in this in this way, right? Like I was like, I want to make like a full-on record, record. And I don't know, I think it paid off. I think it I think it sounds great. I'm like super proud of it, but like I do notice that a lot of the songs are about like breaking up with your job. Like they sound like breakup songs, but in reality, it's me like being like, oh my god, like I don't know how to keep this job going. I don't know how to like, you know, like uh again, it's that it's the what it is part of being a professional in you know, 2025. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I I will say, I I think you did an incredible job. Uh of you know, you some of the times when you hear people that are like, this is fully me. This is the director's cut, this is it, you know, without any sort of outside influence. Sometimes like that, that's awesome. It's pure artistic expression, but sometimes it's also like you people leave the room being like, You could have trimmed this, or it could have been cleaner. And what I think that you did a really great job of is like while having that approach, I think it's a true album album. It like feels tight, it feels clean. The opening and the transitions, and as much as you said, you pulled back on production. It feels so full. So just like kudos. Incredible record, and I think like there's nothing that like it leaves you wanting more.
SPEAKER_00:You tell that to everybody.
SPEAKER_01:I got a backlog, and I could tell you that's not true. No, but it's just like I think you did a really great job understanding that's the case.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, it's very costly to do that. I I noticed. I think like, you know, I I a lot of tragedy and strife like befell the making of this record. And you know, I can even speak from experience that like when we like when we were shooting the music video for for the song Future Music, my grandma died in the middle of it. And yeah, and I was like, well, thankfully, it's like I was in Mexico when we were shooting the video, and my grandma was like an hour away in Mexico, and I remember it's like we were going from one location to another, but there was some part of me that was just like, we gotta finish the video and I can't show it, you know. And yeah, that the same as uh when we were mixing the record, my other grandma died in the middle of mixing it. And it was and like those are just like the the like most black and white type of examples, but it's like one of those things where I was just like, uh, this just has to get done. Like I'm here, like I I have to finish it and I have to like oversee this gets turned in. I think it was also like the most noteless record I've ever gotten done. Meaning like I didn't really even tell the label that I was like doing it. I kind of just turn I kind of just turn it in.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because that was very much just like I think like I don't want to, I don't want to shoot for anything, I don't want to try for anything. I just want to do something myself under my limits, under my constraints. And then I I want to do like one of those like take it or leave it. Uh I think it's because like I I don't know, I did it for me, you know. I don't know. I miss doing that sometimes. So I appreciate that you like it. Because in a way, sometimes when you do things for yourself, you're kind of like like thank you. Like I was I really appreciate that. I was trying to please my worst critic myself, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's I I I sincerely thank you for that.
SPEAKER_01:Of course. Well, hey, let's get into your next one here. And I know we've alluded to it a couple times here, but Southland Tales, right? Richard Kelly movie, also directed Donnie Darko.
SPEAKER_00:And the box.
SPEAKER_01:Don't forget the box.
SPEAKER_00:That's right, that's right. Underrated.
SPEAKER_01:Stars uh Dwayne The Rock Johnson before he was like truly, truly, you know, the the movie star that we have known him to be. But yeah, uh curious, you know, why is it here on your pot five? What is it that you love about it and how has it impacted you?
SPEAKER_00:Well, for one, whenever people look at the smashing machines, I I don't know when this is coming out, but like people people have the you know, they're marketing this movie as like, oh, it's Dwayne the Rock Johnson's like first, like you know, like letter, like you know, move to drama or whatever. And I'm like, nah, my guy was Boxer Santeros first, and that's when he was like taking risks before it was just like who's the rock playing in this movie? Oh, he's playing The Rock. Yeah, yeah. He was bought you know, he was Boxer Santeros. And so like, you know, everybody, I think like everybody, or I would hope that everybody has like that high school like obsession or like you know, teenage obsession where like you find something and like it is yours. Like it's that one thing where you know, like you grow older and people go like, Oh, like have you ever seen this movie? And you kind of want to jump in and say, like, I saw that for I was there, you know, like no one cared. I you know, uh, I have a my drummer Chris is like that with um with uh Walk Hard, the where he was like, I was alone in the movie theme, like no one, no one was there, like and now all of you are you're all like you weren't there when he needed it most kind of thing. Yeah. I think I feel that way with Southland Tales because like I remember watching Donnie Darko, I think as everybody who was you know 13 or 14 in the 2000s or early 2010s did, but uh I remember Southland Tales more because I watched Donnie Darko, but I always felt that it was like very much a victim of uh of like inspiration. You know, like it's like one of those movies that like even back then I was like, oh, like he like sorry for calling myself really cool right now, but it's like even back then I was like, oh, it's just like David Lynch, he's trying to do like David Lynch, like this is like it's obtuse, it doesn't explain itself, it's a time loop, it's whatever, it's got the needle drops. I was like, oh, this is like you know, and like you can say it's very twin peaks, you know. Very much so, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but like, you know, Lynch me like did twin peaks, and so like if anybody tries to do that, like then it's just tangential and it's just more twin peaks. I'm not saying that Donnie Darko is bad, I'm just saying that like it definitely is like a victim of inspiration.
SPEAKER_03:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Whereas like I remember watching, I was like, oh, I'm excited to see his next movie, and then when Southland Tales came out and everybody like didn't get it or hated it, I was like, no, you don't get it. This movie fucking rips. Um I I think I became obsessed with it, and I think this has been like a big, you know, like I I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything like that, but I get tinfoil hatty about certain things, like you know, like you know, whenever like it and it's nothing fun. It's always just like I think that the algorithm the YouTube, like, you know, back in the day I was like, I think the YouTube algorithm is gonna shape the way people listen to music. Like that was like me like 10, 15 years ago. Or like uh when my parents when I was making music in high school and my parents were like, why don't you charge for music on Bandcamp? I was like, because like streaming has made music invaluable and the only way to cut through the noise is to like be make it free and spreadable, you know, like uh like torrent and all that stuff. And I I think I was kind of like that because like Southland Tales is like speculative fiction and it's sadly like kind of accurate, yeah. You know, and it keeps like I keep calling back to it and being like, dude, like things came true. Like you have the like you know, the streamer activist, but also kind of porn stars that are like talking about teenage hoardiness not being a crime, but they're also like very imbued in like a government conspiracy. You have like you know, a civil war that might have happened in the US that we don't get to see, like you know, but but everything happens in LA, you know, and like the media kind of dictates like the way like it was just like the perfect thing to be obsessed with when you're like 15. I mean, like I I think I was 15, I don't know how old I was anymore, but um I remember I had it on my uh my iPod video, like I downloaded it, I was so obsessed with it, I would watch it on my iPod video in my grandma's house in Mexico. Like whenever I had to go on a trip to Mexico, I had it like on a tiny little screen, and I was always saying, like, you know, like Pimst don't commit suicide. I would like quote it all the time. Yeah. But I think the reason it like really shaped me is because like I think like it's not because of the conspiracy or speculative fiction component of it, but really because it was like the first time that I felt that I discovered something like special, yes, and that I came across something special. And this was before Letterboxd and and like all we had was IMDB forums and like word of mouth or whatever, like really, really, really like spent a lot of time defending that movie. And I've noticed over the years that it's gotten this like reappraisal. Totally. I think I included it on my list because I think that was like an example of like the first time I think like as a teenager that I really formulated my opinion out of from positivity. Because you know, more I remember the first movie I hated was Pirates of the Caribbean Curse of the Black Pearl. Uh-huh. When I was a kid and I saw that, I was just like, this movie was terrible. And you know, you learn very quickly how to dislike things, you know. But like I think like developing your own personal taste is like something that um I love to see in people. Like m I have a younger sister and And you know, I'm like 12 years older than her and I'm able to see her kind of develop her own taste in things. And I think it's that's always the most exciting part about like anyone's journey where like they're outside of the like letterbox top 250 movies or whatever, and they're able to find like a mid, you know, three out of fiver or a two out of fiver and say, like, no, you didn't get it. This movie's this movie's the fucking best, dude. Like, and Southland Tales is that movie for me. Like, I it's now my wife's favorite movie, but like I think like it's inspirational because much like American movie, I think it's like that thing where it's like Richard had to make that movie, right? And he didn't care how long it was, how obtuse it was, why there was a music video in the middle of it, and Justin Timberlake dances to a killer song, like it just has so much sauce.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And like I really respect anything that is like that bold. That really shaped for me like this kind of idea of like I can have my own opinion, I can defend my own opinion, yeah. Uh, and I can really demonstrate to people that like I have my own perspective on art. Cause definitely back then there was no such thing as being like an influencer or an Instagram person or whatever. So, like, if you had an opinion, you stood by it, and it wasn't like the monoculture opinion of like, you know, like you gotta go see this movie. I was like, no, this movie's this movie's important. Yeah. Donnie Darko's whatever. Like this movie's. I also defend the box, but like I I wanted to include a movie that I was like very obvious, a gospel movie. And I heard that you had to like in some way, shape, or form interact with whatever I put on the list. And so I was like, I'm gonna make him watch South Plant Tales if he hasn't seen it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I had it, and it it was it's it's a couple couple of things that like I'm grateful for that you had me watch it for. And one of them is like, of course, the ambitiousness and the chaotic nature of the movie, but also just how like telling it feels like on the themes, but also just like an underrated aspect is I also live in in Los Angeles, but I didn't grow up here, and so like had I seen it back then, it's just like it's so much different when you're immersed here and like it's it's f familiar settings and the things you see, and it's just uh that piece of it, I think it's very LA and also super LA. Yeah, and so that that was another like awesome part for me, is just like movies that feel very LA, like have like a new perspective that like I hadn't had, you know, not living here when I grew up, but yeah, very cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, crazy good needle drops, really good soundtrack. Um, I love I love that it's an apocalyptic end. Spoilers. Yep. Uh I I love like I one of my like white whale records is the Moby B sides to the record play because a lot of them are like singles that were not included in that record, and a lot of those songs are in the soundtrack to Southland Tales. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I that record's too expensive. So uh I see Moby sometimes. What an LA thing to say, right? I see Moby sometimes when I go run around Griffith Park, and sometimes I really want to be like, hey dude, uh, I need you to reissue this because I love Southland Tales and I want it. But yeah, uh, I'm glad I made you watch that. I think like I I I ended up picking some stuff where I was just like, he's not gonna read that. I'm gonna uh but it'd be funny to make him read a thousand page book.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, sometimes if depending on timing, I do my best to try within that time frame. But yeah, sometimes just the time limitation.
SPEAKER_00:I also included something that you can't you can't even access. Right. Sorry if this is like such a forced segue, but what cd? What dot cd? Yeah. That was a thing that like when I emailed it, uh, the the older people on the label team were like, oh my god, haven't heard that in a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What.cd was like definitely if like I had a you know, like kind of like saying like I'm cool for liking Southland Tales Before You, what dot CD is like my badge of coolness to like 10 people. But it it was like a torrent website, something I would never do because it's a crime, you know. Right. And have never done. I've never done it. I I was only invited to to you know to browse. To audit. I did not inhale. Uh what.cd was like an invite-only music website where people uploaded like lossless versions of records or like vinyl rips, like people would do vinyl rips, and there was like even like a bounty board where like I tried to like get all these materials so that you could look at it, but like no one screenshot at the website from what I can gather. But it would be like people would be like, Oh, like we're looking for the Godspeed you black emperor 15 copy tape thing. If you can upload it, we will give you you would get like gigabytes of downloads, right? So like the thing that you had to do is you had you could download stuff, but you also had to seed stuff. Like that was the exchange. But I think what.cd shaped my entire taste in music because it was like, you know, again, pre 15 seconds of music on on you know uh Addison Ray videos, yeah. You know, you had to like read about like interesting music or scour, like, you know, you heard from a guy who knew a guy, or like you know, like uh radio rate your music, I think is like maybe the closest thing to this, because it's a bunch of like deeply, deeply pretentious people giving good records a two out of five. That's kind of what what dot cd was, where it was just people going, like, oh no, let me put you on a sum good, all right. This is uh finesse's endless summer. Yeah, it's a noise album, you're gonna love it. And I did, and that's how I discovered Ambient and like all of the like my music taste is incredibly shaped by that. And like I I included in my pop five because I always feel like the thing that I have to always retract the most whenever I do these interviews is like I make guitar forward music, but I don't listen to guitar forward music at all. I listen to like ambient and like electronic. Like I'm always on boomcat.com, like checking out like what what's dropping, like uh my vinyl collection, like it'll be like the alternative section is maybe like you know, like like 50 or 80 records, but the experimental section or electronic is like over 200, right? Yeah. I I don't think I would have such like an eclectic taste in music if it wasn't for what dot cd. Because this was I can't believe that I'm saying this, but it was like it was like where I found out about Animal Collective and all that stuff. And like it's it's it makes me sad sometimes that Animal Collective isn't like like the Gen Zers are not that into just goofy, like goofy beach boy music. No one's trying to you know, there was that era in the 2010s where everybody was just like we're gonna we wanna be the beach boys. You know, Vampire Weekend was trying to be the beach boys, grizzly bear was trying to be the beach boys, but my favorite I think was always Animal Collective. It just makes me sad that they're not like the indie, like they're on they're not in the indie Mount Rushmore of like shit anymore.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But for me, they're all timers. And I think a lot of those records did help shape the way that I like write music, you know, and the way that I make art to this day, you know, like I that's how I found out about Destroyer, that's how I found out about Tim Hecker. That's how I found out like that music isn't just like something you enjoy to listen to, it's like texture, yeah you know, and it's in and it could be whatever you want it to be. It doesn't have to be about, you know, because like I was very much like for a while that kind of listener that was like, oh, what's I need to know what this song is about, yeah, so that I get it right, you know, like and I think there are a lot of people still like that, or that like treat music as like I connect with this song because it's about this thing and this thing is this. And I kind of like when when art betrays that, and I think like the only way that I was able to discover that was by listening to like something that was a bit more esoteric. And the only way that I was able to do that was by going on what.cd and seeing what people were talking about and then downloading it. Unfortunately, I ended up getting banned because I was not seating because my parents got a letter going like, Hey, what's this about you downloading music illegally? And I would be like, I don't know I don't know. And so I stopped, I would download a record and then close my you know my PFP browser and or allegedly I would do that because I've never torrented before. But yeah, it it that that I would put in my pop pop five of like I think what I am today, and it definitely does. I kind of like that that's one of those things where I'm like, you just have to be there, man.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Like you miss you for sure. It it's interesting, and it reminds me so much, like I I would never had the chance to experience it, unfortunately. But and also allegedly, you know, the popular ones of the Pirate Bay or otherwise was like the kind of approach during when torrent was kind of a thing in in in my youth as well. But so much of that completely transformed music listening. And just like you talked about your prophetic wisdom of what YouTube algorithms were gonna do to shape things and how ultimately streaming has shaped things. You know, one of the things that is kind of now even more prevalent is like a potential AI impact on music creation. And one of the things that I've come back to that I think you touched on just a little bit here, that I've has been my defense of why AI music may not be the next thing is that uh people love the story. People want to know what things are about, they want to know who the person is. Like people I think are obsessed with some of the Taylor Swift isms of things because like they tie it back to like who is this person, what is it experiencing, how does that then tie back into the music? I think that was true with Miles Davis and some of the stuff that he was doing and some of the like story, like the people behind the thing is the actual compelling aspect of it. And I mean, your story alone and some of the things that you've gone through, and I think some of the heartbreak that you touched about in the album all is what shapes it, you know? And so I am curious that like we did see that big shift with what was happening in Torrenting about like what your thoughts are and what's gonna potentially be the future of what happens with music and uh what might be that next thing.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I think I think people like to talk about things they don't like and things that they do like. I think that whenever we're introduced to new technology, it's like very easy to be afraid. Right, right. And I think the reason why I feel like more afraid of like I'm definitely more afraid of like authoritarianism and rejection. Like uh, you know, I'm an immigrant and I've this I categorically, you know, can say with confidence that like I've never felt more rejected by the US and more afraid of saying, you know, how I feel about things. I've never felt more afraid than now, you know, and like that I'm scared of, right? Because that has like that has like an impact that I think is not speculative. I think it's like happening in real time. Whereas when I like look at AI, the thing that I always tell my friends who like work in the film industry and stuff like that is that like, look, man, like there was a point where we introduced the VHS video camera or the Super 8 or something like that. And I'm sure there was this idea that like, you know, or like my example, right? Like when we had like the Mbox or the Apollo twin and like home recording equipment was made readily available to people and they could like record stuff in their house. Like the fact of the matter is for me is that at the end of the day, people want a water cooler moment and they want something that they can talk about and feel invested in. I mean, I'm I've done this. I I sat through see I I came in late, but I sat through four seasons of Game of Thrones because I was kind of tired of feeling left out by a friend group, right? Sure. And that's kind of how I look at AI, where I'm like generative AI exists. You know, like you can't put the cat back in. The bat is that what it is? And the bat you can't, you can't, like it's done, it's out, right? But like I don't think that these things like will ever take off because like I don't want to watch your home movies. Like, I don't want to watch like your like great, you made a movie with Tom as a blah blah blah, you know. They'll never let that happen because Tom, Tom's too big. But but it's that thing to me where I'm just like the big reason why we interact with art isn't not just it's not just to connect with the artist, but really it's to connect with each other. Totally. Sure. Uh because like I never worry about being liked by my friends, right? Like in like I don't think my friends are necessarily like fans of my music, right? And so like I'm kind of free of this idea of coolness with when it comes to art. But I do enjoy the experience of talking about art with them, specifically art that we don't even like, or that like like or that or about an artist or something like that. And I think that can only exist if there's a human component in it. Just like when I was able to get like my own little recording equipment and I circumvented, you know, the system, meaning like the studio system, and I made a record, and now thanks to streaming, you know, which even in its failures and like its things that it's getting wrong, it did provide me with the life that I have now. Totally. Technology in big tech was able to give me that. Like, am I a critic of big tech? 100%. But I do feel that like with generative music, people like the one area where I do feel like it's gonna affect the most is like jazz and beat making and like passive ambient music, and like that makes me super sad. Yeah, but like when it comes to other stuff, especially like movies, I think we're gonna see a wave of just crap and people are not gonna want to talk about it. And so it's just not gonna get made. Like it's just a quick buck type of thing. I think like for me, capitalism often like skews on the side of like short-term gain and like always looking at short-term game, and the short-term game of generative AI is like well, like it's valuable because people are talking about it like right now. Like it's like right, you know. And of course it has like very harsh implications, but there's some part of me that just believes that like or wants to believe that people are more inclined to want to connect with one another by talking about like, you know, a TV show that they're all watching or a movie that they're all watching. Maybe I'm being too optimistic. I'm a huge hater, but even now that I'm talking, I'm like, maybe you're being a little too kind. I'm a harsh optimist at the end of the day. Uh at least that's my hope. I think if you catch me on a different morning, I probably would be like, oh, we're all fucked. Like, I'm glad I got there when I did, and like, haha, like, see ya. Like, I don't know. I I think that without like some form of optimism, and I think that's even resonates in the record that I wrote, there's really no point in trying. I don't know, you can't really be a part of the process if you think that it's all gonna go to shit. You know, like people will be able to like smell that through the through the screen or through the headphones or whatever. Yeah. So I I don't know. I hope for I expect the worst, but I hope for the best. I really sincerely, even with this record as it's been going out, you know, it's had its own myriad of like strife and like difficulty, and I've definitely cried a lot as like things have happened, and like you know, like I talked about like my grandma dying during the video and stuff like there's no shortage of stories that I can tell about like things that have gone wrong, but at the end of the day, I'm like, you know, I've I've gotten to have the privilege of living through the example of like making something and it catching on much after the fact. Sure. You know, Vincent Van Gogh didn't get I'm not comparing myself to Vincent Van Gogh. Please don't no I'm just saying that like clipping it, clipping it, clipping it, clipping chat. No, I'm I'm more just saying that like I think like if something is good and honest and true, like eventually it'll find where it needs to be. Eventually, and I'm trying to retain that mantra as I put this out into the world, you know. I totally I really believe in that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, hey, I want to be mindful of the clock here. I know we have uh a couple more things to get through. So I'm a yapper. Me too. I and I love to geek out on this stuff, so it's just like this is my space.
SPEAKER_00:But quick fire hits.
SPEAKER_01:We got I'm gonna I'm gonna have you kind of nail uh narrow it down. House of Leaves or 2666.
SPEAKER_00:Let's pick one to kind of let's just say 2666 is one of my favorite books of all time, but I'll talk about House of Leaves because again, this shaped me. Yep. Uh, very much an internet book. It's the kind of book that I think inspires a lot of things, especially uh YouTube essays to fall asleep to. It did the thing that I've never seen a book do before, which was like a shift in the medium and like being weird and like appealing to like a side of like hyper-obsessive internet like culture. Like, I mean, one of the main characters' entire thing is like what people have built careers out of, which is just like making content about obsessions that they have. And I think like when I read it, it really rung out to me because it was again one of those things where I read it and I felt like I had to tell people about it. Like it I don't know, it just like everything I've said here before. I think like I pick things where I was just like, this is shaping my taste. And like this is shaping who like I felt when I read it, like I read something that I discovered on my own and that I want to tell people about, and that I want to like, and like it's that kind of thing where like I see that book in someone's shelf when I go to their house and I'm like, what did what you think about that, right? Like, let's talk about it, right? That's the short answer. I think that's the short answer to the question.
SPEAKER_01:One of the things I felt and this may like be the online portions of it. Like, I obviously didn't get through it all, but like in the portions that I've got through in between when we book this and now our conversation is it kind of felt like a video game to me, right? In terms of like the way it's structured of like you're getting pieces of the story from only parts of the footnotes or different narrators and the like, you know. So it's just uh done very well.
SPEAKER_00:My friend, I implore you to look up myhouse.wad.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Myhouse.wad is definitely inspired by House of Leaves. It's a guy who made a kind of level of doom that's like House of Leaves, where it's like it's a house. But the deeper that you like go into the house, the more that the house is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. Sure, sure. That I yeah, do that. You're I should have included that instead of the book because the book is 800 pages.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I'll check it out. I'll I'll do it. And I will finish the book. I've been compelled enough to keep reading for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't know if you'll like 2666. I like it's too obtuse. Sure. But it's it's uh I love post-lit fiction and uh it's my favorite genre to read. I just like the running theme of everything aside from what dot cd that I picked was like ambition. Like the reason I picked the Larry Sanders show was because like you know, it's the blueprint for 30 rock, it's the blueprint for curb your enthusiasm, it's the blueprint for all these things. But Gary Shanling was the first guy to do a show where it's like, I want I want to make a show about the host and the business, and I want to be impossibly unlikable. No one, everyone's a piece of shit, but like it doesn't matter as long as we get it on, you know, like we start rolling, you know. I I just I love I love ambitious stuff, even if it fails.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. I mean, that show is so funny and emotionally rich, but also just that precursor to the cringe comedy, right? That's the The Office, the 30 role. No laugh track, no laugh track. It reminds me of Bojack in some ways, too.
SPEAKER_00:Like there's just Bojack wishes it was as good as the Larry Sanders show. No, totally.
SPEAKER_01:I'm just saying the things that were kind of branching off of the inspiration from what like Larry Sanders show was. And I mean, it's uh such a bummer too. Just the you know, I loved watching the Gary Shanling doc that came out a couple years ago. The Judd Opta one. Yeah, yeah, great. Yeah, just to kind of work through that. But yeah, awesome. Uh, you mentioned that this is something you'll you were putting on while recording. One of the curiosities that I had is was it like a a way to kind of decompress or was it something that actually fueled the creativity?
SPEAKER_00:ADHD brain is the short answer. Sure. Uh I get really frustrated if I don't do a take right, like when I'm recording and I attempt to hyperfocus. And so the only way for me to alleviate that is like I will literally be tracking like the track we'll be playing, but on this monitor, I'm watching the Larry Sanders show at the same time.
SPEAKER_01:That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:So eventually I'll have a loop going and I'll play it as though I'm no longer thinking about it anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:ADHD brain.
SPEAKER_01:That's one of the things I love when my band was recording and we were uh, you know, at the producer's studio. He used to always have a projector on of like no you know 90s cartoons or punctu would show up now every now and then. There was always something on a projector in the studio while we were recording, no sound or anything, but it was it was like a good way to like have less pressure, I think, in the moment. So I like that approach. Yeah. Awesome. Well, we'll get you out of here, but before we do, we ask everyone five rapid fire questions to to send you out. Okay. So first one here, if you had to be on a reality TV show, which one would you choose?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Damn, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god. First one that comes to mind.
SPEAKER_00:First one that comes like reality TV show? Thinking last chef survivor.
SPEAKER_01:Is it a competitive show? Not necessarily. It just has to be reality TV. Sure. Uh-huh. Uh Cash Cap. Oh, that's an excellent one. Cash Cap. Excellent. Awesome. If people have never consumed any of your pop five, what's the one you'd want them to go experience right now?
SPEAKER_00:Top Line Tales, because uh I I don't care if they like it or not. I think everybody needs to see it. Beautiful. What's a favorite onstage moment or performance? Bringing my mom. I don't know, just whenever my mom's had a show. It always brings me joy. Yeah, it makes it, it makes it feel worth it, definitely.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. You you kind of alluded to this earlier that this may be the last thing you do. So, you know, in the same vein, if you knew that tonight was your last show ever, what's the last song on the set list for you?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I'm not joking, it would have to be Swinglin. Everybody has this like idea in narrative that people are tortured by their success. I'll play that song forever. I love it. I love watching people smile to it. I love like the way it's resonated with people. I have no qualms about it. If it were up to me, I would do the like Kanye West thing and play that song five times in the set if I could get away with it. Yeah. So I that would be my last song.
SPEAKER_01:I love it. And last one here. What's one piece of advice you'd give someone who's wanting to start making music themselves? Start. Love it.
SPEAKER_00:It's time to plant a tree. It's today. Today. Who cares if nobody likes it? If you get too hung up on the idea of like what comes thereafter and the expectation of what's coming thereafter, you're never going to begin. Treat your art discipline like you would an exercise, which is just like do the thing that you could be the most consistent at.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I love it. All right. Where can people stream the new record? How can they uh find you, follow you, etc.? What what you got to promote here?
SPEAKER_00:I would just promote my Instagram. It's at Yosoy Harmless, which for those who took Spanish one means I am harmless. Uh and you know, the record's available wherever you know you can stream, but I think the vinyl version is the better version, so you should go find my bandcamp, which I think is twincabins.bandcamp.com, which is my old band name.
SPEAKER_01:Well, man, thank you so much for doing this. Uh, you have such a beautiful story. You make such incredible music. I was not just blowing you up to say that the record is insanely well done. Uh, I will be buying a vinyl myself and buying one to give away to a listener here. So uh we'll have some sort of thing going on in our stories and stuff, but thank you so much. I feel so privileged that you were able to stop by and maybe I'll see you along with Moby or somewhere hopefully around around the town.
SPEAKER_00:In this beautiful suit.
SPEAKER_01:I'll see you. Thank you. Thank you. That'll do it for today's show. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, follow the show wherever you're streaming. Leave a quick rating or review, and share it with someone who loves discovering new artists. Big thanks to Harmless for joining me. You can stream their new album by them, by you, by me, everywhere. And if you haven't yet, make sure you dive into the track that we open with future music. We're heading out with a song that he mentioned at the end of our conversation, what is currently his biggest hit, twinkling. We'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_02:But until then, watch your own.
